[diveinfo] [bottomgun@mindspring.com: [gavinscooters] 400G Thinsulate material and the original WKPP custom DUI drysuits]
Jean-Sebastien Morisset
diveinfo@lists.mvlan.net
Wed, 26 Apr 2006 22:20:39 -0400
----- Forwarded message from "Jay K. Jeffries" <bottomgun@mindspring.com> -----
Delivered-To: jsmoriss@localhost.mvlan.net
Delivered-To: jsmoriss@mvlan.net
Delivered-To: mailing list gavinscooters@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 22:05:09 -0400
From: "Jay K. Jeffries" <bottomgun@mindspring.com>
Reply-To: gavinscooters@yahoogroups.com
X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11
To: <gavinscooters@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [gavinscooters] 400G Thinsulate material and the original WKPP custom DUI drysuits
Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=lima; d=yahoogroups.com;
b=kMms+X/3X/EH5Gqn94gdu6rypUFnsTpWM93XvJ1LMpafN7e9S/rCGVuGJvp9d4zs9bJVE9V8bbvN+G1YIqtCq5VXa4ywcb5g3KO9Txe3vMvf+wwZePJlei7HiWAXPxBB;
X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email
X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 11553161-m4135
Thread-Index: AcZpO6gM6UsSXajlSZ2T5q4zQBiyRQAXNXmg
X-ELNK-Trace: 7c4188b4fbd7028a6fb18b2e56ec87b340683398e744b8a4c47d732fc0d900d1b12fadf6ee0787f2387f7b89c61deb1d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c
X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0
X-Yahoo-Profile: koblen
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:gavinscooters-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE,
MY_OBFUT,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63
Christos,
Apologize for not replying sooner but just completing wading through all of
today's emails.
3M is great at innovating multiple products from one discovery. What we
know as 400 gram (400G) Thinsulate was actually developed as mats for
cleaning up oil spills. The lighter loft variations arrived later to the
market. The work accomplished at the Army's Natick center was separate from
the Navy's Diver Thermal Protection Program that Gavin was involved with and
that DUI provided basic research and test articles for. That Navy project
birthed a number of other diver thermal insulation and aircrew survival
projects over the years, many of which DUI also had the opportunity to take
a lead in. You might consider this a new way of marketing 400G but from
3M's perspective, it is just another application for their oil wicking pad
product.
400G Thinsulate is different from most other clothing insulative materials
as I probably didn't explain clearly previously. Most other clothing
insulative materials depend on loft (the thickness and compressibility of a
material.a high loft material is usually very light, lots of air, and very
compressible) where as 400G is in comparison a dense material with very
small air spaces, hardly any loft, and with little compressibility. The
very fine air spaces are actually beneficial as there is very little
migration of air/gas through the material which boosts its insulative value.
By the nature of the modified paraffin, it displays little stretch
capability. Stretch is undesirable in an optimal insulative material as the
air spacing has to opening up in a stretch allowing the insulative gas to
migrate and thus decrease the insulative property of the material. 3M or
one of the knockoffs may have come up with something new in stretch
Thinsulate but in my experience, an insulative material highly suitable for
tech diving is doubtful. The only real way to compare insulative materials
for diving is through an expensive copper plate conduction test while the
material is compressed. All these other claims are pure marketing to
compete against what really works.
In reference to George's later reply that referenced the WKPP dry suits, DUI
was looking for worth-while diving projects to support with research and
materials. Billy Deans submitted a proposal to support his team of divers
in the initial salvage effort of the El Cazador and the WKPP submitted a
proposal to support their effort at that time to link up two major cave
systems. Both were backed by DUI with product and custom items. As George
stated, DUI supplied a number of custom cut TLS suits and underwear (which I
believe later became identified as the 'cave-cut'). To insure there was no
conflict of interest between Gavin's association with DUI through the Navy's
various research diving projects, these initial suits were rented to the
WKPP for $1/year. At that time, DUI didn't feel that the cave market was
really large enough to be a real market but their Director of Research &
Engineering prodded them forward (it did turn out to be a viable market).
These suits, mixed gas, and Gavin's early developments in big scooters would
become the first major tools to allow the WKPP to evolve into a much larger,
innovative organization that could be successful in tackling much larger
projects that humbled other organizations.
Respectfully,
Jay K. Jeffries
-----Original Message-----
From: gavinscooters@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gavinscooters@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Christos Koutentis
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 10:12 AM
To: gavinscooters@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [gavinscooters] Re: XS (excess) underwear
George and Jay:
Regarding thinsulate b, whilst I recognise that it was originally
spec'd by the army R&D lab in Natick for use as insoles in combat
boots whilst the uppers were lined with cambrelle, it was still
nevertheless only used in the soles.
My limited understanding with DUI's involevement is this: That they
figured out a new way of marketing it since it is more crush
resistant than anything else and hence saleable to divers, but that
otherwise it is not intrinsically any warmer than other types of
insulate.
My question to Jay is whether the 2 way stretch and 4 way stretch
used by diving concepts etc is still the same modified paraffin
material albeit with more loft. Really appreciated your input, and
greatly value this sort of tremendous expertise.
BTW George: Really find it endlessly amusing when we get a kick-arse
response from you every time we promote and AG-ism. Never fails;-)
Sorry man, but you are so much fun:-):-):-):-)
Christos
----- End forwarded message -----
--
Jean-Sebastien Morisset, Sr. UNIX Administrator <jsmoriss@mvlan.net>
Personal Home Page <http://jsmoriss.mvlan.net/>
Underwater and Travel Photographs <http://www.mvpix.com/>